jonnysods
Apr 6, 02:24 PM
Man alive, if that's the nearest competitor investors must be feeling pretty good with Apple right now.
I certainly love my iPad.
I certainly love my iPad.
aohus
Apr 19, 02:35 PM
WRONG. A lot of modern GUI elements are INVENTED by Apple:
http://obamapacman.com/2010/03/myth-copyright-theft-apple-stole-gui-from-xerox-parc-alto/
WRONG! They weren't invented at Apple's Cupertino HQ, they were invented back in Palo Alto (Xerox PARC).
Secondly, your source is a pro-Apple website. Thats a problem right there.
I'll give you a proper source, the NYTimes (http://www.nytimes.com/1989/12/20/business/xerox-vs-apple-standard-dashboard-is-at-issue.html), which wrote an article on Xerox vs Apple back in 1989, untarnished, in its raw form. Your 'source' was cherry picking data.
Here is one excerpt.
Then Apple CEO John Sculley stated:
Apple may face special problems because of admissions made by its chairman, John Sculley, in his 1987 book, ''Odyssey,'' a chronicle of his split with Apple's co-founder, Steven P. Jobs. ''Much of the Macintosh technology wasn't invented in the building,'' he wrote. ''Indeed, the Mac, like the Lisa before it, was largely a conduit for technology developed'' at Xerox's Palo Alto Research Center.
^^ thats a GLARING admission, by the CEO of Apple, don't you think? Nevertheless, Xerox ended up losing that lawsuit, with some saying that by the time they filed that lawsuit it was too late. The lawsuit wasn't thrown out because they didn't have a strong case against Apple, but because of how the lawsuit was presented as is at the time.
I'm not saying that Apple stole IP from Xerox, but what I am saying is that its quite disappointing to see Apple fanboys trying to distort the past into making it seem as though Apple created the first GUI, when that is CLEARLY not the case. The GUI had its roots in Xerox PARC. That, is a FACT.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/78/Rank_Xerox_8010%2B40_brochure_front.jpg
http://obamapacman.com/2010/03/myth-copyright-theft-apple-stole-gui-from-xerox-parc-alto/
WRONG! They weren't invented at Apple's Cupertino HQ, they were invented back in Palo Alto (Xerox PARC).
Secondly, your source is a pro-Apple website. Thats a problem right there.
I'll give you a proper source, the NYTimes (http://www.nytimes.com/1989/12/20/business/xerox-vs-apple-standard-dashboard-is-at-issue.html), which wrote an article on Xerox vs Apple back in 1989, untarnished, in its raw form. Your 'source' was cherry picking data.
Here is one excerpt.
Then Apple CEO John Sculley stated:
Apple may face special problems because of admissions made by its chairman, John Sculley, in his 1987 book, ''Odyssey,'' a chronicle of his split with Apple's co-founder, Steven P. Jobs. ''Much of the Macintosh technology wasn't invented in the building,'' he wrote. ''Indeed, the Mac, like the Lisa before it, was largely a conduit for technology developed'' at Xerox's Palo Alto Research Center.
^^ thats a GLARING admission, by the CEO of Apple, don't you think? Nevertheless, Xerox ended up losing that lawsuit, with some saying that by the time they filed that lawsuit it was too late. The lawsuit wasn't thrown out because they didn't have a strong case against Apple, but because of how the lawsuit was presented as is at the time.
I'm not saying that Apple stole IP from Xerox, but what I am saying is that its quite disappointing to see Apple fanboys trying to distort the past into making it seem as though Apple created the first GUI, when that is CLEARLY not the case. The GUI had its roots in Xerox PARC. That, is a FACT.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/78/Rank_Xerox_8010%2B40_brochure_front.jpg
janstett
Sep 13, 01:37 PM
The OS takes advantage of the extra 4 cores already therefore its ahead of the technology curve, correct? Gee, no innovation here...please move along folks. :rolleyes:
As for using a Dell, sure they could've used that. Would Windows use the extra 4 cores? Highly doubtful. Microsoft has sketchy 64 bit support let alone dual core support; I'm not saying "impossible" but I haven't read jack squat about any version of Windows working well with quad cores. You think those fools (the same idiots who came up with Genuine Advantage) actually optimized their OS to run in an 8 core setup? Please pass along what you're smoking. :rolleyes:
Sorry to burst your reality distortion field, but see my previous post. I ran a dual processor Pentium II NT setup ten years ago and Windows handled it just fine THEN -- back when Apple barely supported it with a hack to its cooperatively-multitasked OS and required specially written applications with special library support.
BTW my 2 year old Smithfield handles 4 processors fine (Dual Core Pentium Extreme with hyperthreading = 4 cores).
The only limit with Windows is they keep the low end XP home to 2 processors on the same die. There is probably an architectural limit on both OSX and XP and if it's not 8 it's 16. It's probably 8.
As for using a Dell, sure they could've used that. Would Windows use the extra 4 cores? Highly doubtful. Microsoft has sketchy 64 bit support let alone dual core support; I'm not saying "impossible" but I haven't read jack squat about any version of Windows working well with quad cores. You think those fools (the same idiots who came up with Genuine Advantage) actually optimized their OS to run in an 8 core setup? Please pass along what you're smoking. :rolleyes:
Sorry to burst your reality distortion field, but see my previous post. I ran a dual processor Pentium II NT setup ten years ago and Windows handled it just fine THEN -- back when Apple barely supported it with a hack to its cooperatively-multitasked OS and required specially written applications with special library support.
BTW my 2 year old Smithfield handles 4 processors fine (Dual Core Pentium Extreme with hyperthreading = 4 cores).
The only limit with Windows is they keep the low end XP home to 2 processors on the same die. There is probably an architectural limit on both OSX and XP and if it's not 8 it's 16. It's probably 8.
lOUDsCREAMEr
Jul 27, 03:19 PM
T minus 11 days...............
Cant wait.
i always wonder what does that T stand for??:confused:
Cant wait.
i always wonder what does that T stand for??:confused:
bazaarsoft
Mar 31, 02:30 PM
At least, that's what the Fandroids wanted us to believe when Android fragmentation started being tossed around as a problem. Where are those guys now that Google is actually acknowledging that it's a problem? :eek:
Popeye206
Apr 19, 02:11 PM
x2
Everything is just a development of something else.
There is no absolute originality.
This is a stupid waste of time and effort.
But I guess when you get all big and high and mighty then why not throw some of the spare cash at a silly law suit if for no other reason than getting more publicity.
You obviously don't work in software or product development with statements like this.
Everything is just a development of something else.
There is no absolute originality.
This is a stupid waste of time and effort.
But I guess when you get all big and high and mighty then why not throw some of the spare cash at a silly law suit if for no other reason than getting more publicity.
You obviously don't work in software or product development with statements like this.
ergle2
Sep 19, 12:14 PM
so... after reading here for a while i got a question, its kinda stupid, i'm good at that,
first off, i was doubting between the 24" and the macpro so i disided that for my needs i should realy go with a macpro, but know that i'm hearing things about this 8 core macpro, i'm realy doubting about ordering my quad macpro this month,
has anybody got an idea of how long it would be before apple launches " a macpro octo " :confused:
thx for your time :)
It's Apple. No-one has any idea when they'll do anything. :)
It could be as soon as January, could be a lot later -- but I seriously doubt it'd be at the same price as a quad is now. I'd figure on a fairly major premium. It wouldn't surprise me if the OEM price of processors was in the $1200-1500 range alone (current 3.0GHz 5160's are around $900) for a lower clock-speed version.
Which is fastest will very much depend upon how well your specific applications scale -- fewer, faster cores can often bear more slower cores, and scaling isn't linear -- traditional thought on SMP was that the first extra core you add adds 80-90% to the speed (for fully-threaded apps, obv.), the second adds about 60-70%, the third about 40%, and so-on... diminishing returns. This will be more so because each chip has a finite amount of bandwidth that is shared between all the cores -- more cores = more contention for the available bandwidth.
Of course, the Mac Pro CPUs are socketed, so you can always go Octo at a later date if you so choose...
first off, i was doubting between the 24" and the macpro so i disided that for my needs i should realy go with a macpro, but know that i'm hearing things about this 8 core macpro, i'm realy doubting about ordering my quad macpro this month,
has anybody got an idea of how long it would be before apple launches " a macpro octo " :confused:
thx for your time :)
It's Apple. No-one has any idea when they'll do anything. :)
It could be as soon as January, could be a lot later -- but I seriously doubt it'd be at the same price as a quad is now. I'd figure on a fairly major premium. It wouldn't surprise me if the OEM price of processors was in the $1200-1500 range alone (current 3.0GHz 5160's are around $900) for a lower clock-speed version.
Which is fastest will very much depend upon how well your specific applications scale -- fewer, faster cores can often bear more slower cores, and scaling isn't linear -- traditional thought on SMP was that the first extra core you add adds 80-90% to the speed (for fully-threaded apps, obv.), the second adds about 60-70%, the third about 40%, and so-on... diminishing returns. This will be more so because each chip has a finite amount of bandwidth that is shared between all the cores -- more cores = more contention for the available bandwidth.
Of course, the Mac Pro CPUs are socketed, so you can always go Octo at a later date if you so choose...
Jamvan
Nov 29, 11:37 AM
I apologize as I have not read through all the comments as yet but if this goes through, how long before we see the request for these types of fees for all PC/Mac sales as those are used to download and listen to music as well?
Silentwave
Sep 14, 11:00 PM
One thing's for sure, Intel appears to have learnt a great deal from the Netburst fiasco -- how not to do things, if nothing else. Unfortunately, they still estimate ~50% of processors shipping in 1Q2007 will be netburst-based (mostly Pentium-D).
It is a shame, but sadly those are the real cheap chips right now. The good news is that they'll change those over soon enough with more Allendales, then millville and so on and so on taking on more segments of the market.
I think as they transition to 45nm we'll see more and more Core chips, simply because they'll want as much manufacturing to be on the new process as possible, and they don't need to scale the D's etc. down to it.
It is a shame, but sadly those are the real cheap chips right now. The good news is that they'll change those over soon enough with more Allendales, then millville and so on and so on taking on more segments of the market.
I think as they transition to 45nm we'll see more and more Core chips, simply because they'll want as much manufacturing to be on the new process as possible, and they don't need to scale the D's etc. down to it.
skunk
Mar 3, 01:28 PM
But, but, but we'll have nobody to argue with... :(
citizenzen
Mar 22, 08:28 PM
Plenty of time to move ships into the area if only on a just in case basis.
Enough time to move diplomatically as well?
Enough time to move diplomatically as well?
Hurda
Apr 27, 08:38 AM
"Calculating a phone's location using just GPS satellite data can take up to several minutes."
Then how is car-navigation working?
Apple - Locating different :D:apple:
Then how is car-navigation working?
Apple - Locating different :D:apple:
j26
Nov 29, 09:18 AM
You're welcome to audit my iPod. I guarantee you'll find nothing but legal tunes.
Given your stance, I wonder how you feel about public libraries offering whole collections of CDs for patrons to "borrow". I think we all know what (many, not all) people are really doing with those CDs when they borrow them. Shouldn't we be doing something about these public institutions turning a blind eye to what is essentially sanctioned piracy?
Put all of 'em on a Zune and "Squirt" 'em to borrowers?
Given your stance, I wonder how you feel about public libraries offering whole collections of CDs for patrons to "borrow". I think we all know what (many, not all) people are really doing with those CDs when they borrow them. Shouldn't we be doing something about these public institutions turning a blind eye to what is essentially sanctioned piracy?
Put all of 'em on a Zune and "Squirt" 'em to borrowers?
ZoomZoomZoom
Sep 18, 11:13 PM
Let the "free market" decide? Oh wait, I forgot, for Macs there is no free market, it is basically a monopoly.
Yeah. I keep on thinking of going for a Thinkpad, but every time I think to how hooked I am on OS X, I can't do it. But I refuse to pay good money for now "outdated" hardware in a flagship notebook computer line. Ridiculous.
Yeah. I keep on thinking of going for a Thinkpad, but every time I think to how hooked I am on OS X, I can't do it. But I refuse to pay good money for now "outdated" hardware in a flagship notebook computer line. Ridiculous.
spicyapple
Jul 30, 11:15 AM
All of the reviews of the Core 2 Duo say that it crushes AMD in the desktop arena. This is good news, now we just need new iMacs, MacBook Pros, and Mac Pros.
Can't wait to hear Steve Jobs' spin on the Core 2 Duos at WWDC. He makes everything sound so good, and with the C2Ds really good, it should be fantastic! :)
Can't wait to hear Steve Jobs' spin on the Core 2 Duos at WWDC. He makes everything sound so good, and with the C2Ds really good, it should be fantastic! :)
NJRonbo
Jun 14, 06:27 PM
I hate Radio Shack.
Salesman have their heads up their butts
or corporate does not know what to tell them.
The 4th store I called said if you have a PIN
you are guaranteed a phone.
Salesman have their heads up their butts
or corporate does not know what to tell them.
The 4th store I called said if you have a PIN
you are guaranteed a phone.
fastlane1588
Jul 27, 11:52 PM
so everyone keeps saying wwdc for all of the hardware releases....well seeing as how apple enjoys releasing stuff on tuesdays there happens to be a tuesday before wwdc. what if they just either quitely released everything or anounced everything that tuesday. that way they arent slow about releasing, and everyone will be set for when they talk about leopard and all the cool apps that they can run on their new machines,
this way they can also keep the focus of wwdc on the software instead of trying to squeeze new releases and software demos and all into one event......just a thought
this way they can also keep the focus of wwdc on the software instead of trying to squeeze new releases and software demos and all into one event......just a thought
mcmlxix
Apr 11, 12:33 PM
I wonder if altering the typical refresh cycle is due to the Verizon release early this year. I think Apple can afford to play the hardware waiting game if two things:
The new hardware is a big step forward. Part of this is producing one iPhone, regardless of carrier (AT&T and Verizon) as well as compatibility for international travelers. More storage and a much improved processor are givens. I�m really surprised how �laggy� the iPhone 4 feels. A bigger display (without altering the phone�s dimensions) would be icing on the cake. Other than that, hasn�t what can be crammed into the hardware plateaued?
iOS 5 should also a big step forward, and it should come this summer in order to appease those waiting for iPhone 5. iOS really needs to liberate itself from requiring a PC to sync with. This is especially true in regards to the iPad, which is/will become the sole �computer� for a large demographic. But for this to happen, I�m pretty sure iOS will need some sort of file system as well as the ability to mount and be mounted as external volumes. The UI also needs a revamp with some sort of new �secret sauce�.
The new hardware is a big step forward. Part of this is producing one iPhone, regardless of carrier (AT&T and Verizon) as well as compatibility for international travelers. More storage and a much improved processor are givens. I�m really surprised how �laggy� the iPhone 4 feels. A bigger display (without altering the phone�s dimensions) would be icing on the cake. Other than that, hasn�t what can be crammed into the hardware plateaued?
iOS 5 should also a big step forward, and it should come this summer in order to appease those waiting for iPhone 5. iOS really needs to liberate itself from requiring a PC to sync with. This is especially true in regards to the iPad, which is/will become the sole �computer� for a large demographic. But for this to happen, I�m pretty sure iOS will need some sort of file system as well as the ability to mount and be mounted as external volumes. The UI also needs a revamp with some sort of new �secret sauce�.
nvbrit
Apr 25, 01:56 PM
You aren't being tracked by Apple, you aren't being tracked to the meter. You can opt out, just switch off location services.
And by the way even if you do switch off location services your location is still being tracked by the mobile phone companies everytime your phone makes a connection with one of their masts, which happens everytime you move cell. Oh and this happens with every phone, otherwise they wouldn't work.
Stop being a paranoid sheep and start reading the facts of this case not the media hype.
well said... this is just hysterical that all this fuss is being made over a file store privately on your own phone and your own computer and not being sent to anyone else. Yes what a total outrage my own devices are storing my own information in a place that only I can access! Grow up people!
And by the way even if you do switch off location services your location is still being tracked by the mobile phone companies everytime your phone makes a connection with one of their masts, which happens everytime you move cell. Oh and this happens with every phone, otherwise they wouldn't work.
Stop being a paranoid sheep and start reading the facts of this case not the media hype.
well said... this is just hysterical that all this fuss is being made over a file store privately on your own phone and your own computer and not being sent to anyone else. Yes what a total outrage my own devices are storing my own information in a place that only I can access! Grow up people!
tortoise
Aug 7, 09:14 PM
Lots of ways it COULD be implemented. Looks at Suns new file system ZFS. It is basically "Copy on Write". With a file system you can do things even fancier then with a DBMS. For example a "block" (i-node) exists physicaly on the disk only once but it could be maped into any numbr of files. If a file in only an orderd set of block numbers then to copy a copy all you need to copy is the set of numbers which is on the order of 1000 times shorter then the data itself.
Ahem, a modern relational database system can do everything a file system can. In fact, they are both databases, but optimized for different tasks and slightly different semantics. The same behaviors can be achieved with both; it is a matter of design bias, not capability. File systems like ZFS actually converge on normal MVCC database behavior, which durably journals all writes but with more flexibility with respect to atomicity and version cleanup than a file system. File system semantics, even versioning ones, are more primitive and less capable than database ones, but with substantially increased performance over what would be possible from an MVCC database for the same task.
Same theory, different optimizations. The balancing act has always been between the power fully ACID-compliant MVCC semantics and the basic speed of simple file system semantics. Apple and Sun are burning some excess performance capacity to deliver features that are closer to the database ideal.
Ahem, a modern relational database system can do everything a file system can. In fact, they are both databases, but optimized for different tasks and slightly different semantics. The same behaviors can be achieved with both; it is a matter of design bias, not capability. File systems like ZFS actually converge on normal MVCC database behavior, which durably journals all writes but with more flexibility with respect to atomicity and version cleanup than a file system. File system semantics, even versioning ones, are more primitive and less capable than database ones, but with substantially increased performance over what would be possible from an MVCC database for the same task.
Same theory, different optimizations. The balancing act has always been between the power fully ACID-compliant MVCC semantics and the basic speed of simple file system semantics. Apple and Sun are burning some excess performance capacity to deliver features that are closer to the database ideal.
Zadillo
Aug 27, 04:06 PM
The consequence is a laptop with a power cord attach to them feeding the insatiable appetite of the thermo nuclear reactor we call the CPU. For the love of reason and common sense, why can't Apple make a laptop with a day worth of battery powered. How about OLED display and multicore chip running at much lower frequency. Enough with the Ghz BS; what is the different between a 2.16Ghz and a 2.33 Ghz processors again?
Cinch
For the same reason that pretty much no-one else makes a laptop like what you described either. The only thing I've seen that even gets close to the sort of battery life you are talking about are some of the Japanese ultraportables that can get 6-11 hours of battery life, using 10-12" screens and very slow and power efficient ULV Core Solo or ULV Pentium M chips. These laptops also tend to cost in the $2000-3000 range.
I would venture to say that even if you slapped one of those ULV processors in a larger notebook with a larger battery, you still wouldn't be able to balance things out to get 24 hours of battery life.
And one has to wonder if people would put up with the performance hit.
OLED display technology at least probably isn't ready to be used for something like a laptop screen.
So, for the "love of reason and common sense", can we stop expecting Apple to create a product that isn't even technically feasible right now?
I think if you want 24 hours of battery life, you're probably better off carrying 6 or 7 spare batteries (and the $600-700 cost of doing so and added weight is still probably less than what it would take to get some laptop that actually had a reliable 24 hour battery life.)
-Zadillo
Cinch
For the same reason that pretty much no-one else makes a laptop like what you described either. The only thing I've seen that even gets close to the sort of battery life you are talking about are some of the Japanese ultraportables that can get 6-11 hours of battery life, using 10-12" screens and very slow and power efficient ULV Core Solo or ULV Pentium M chips. These laptops also tend to cost in the $2000-3000 range.
I would venture to say that even if you slapped one of those ULV processors in a larger notebook with a larger battery, you still wouldn't be able to balance things out to get 24 hours of battery life.
And one has to wonder if people would put up with the performance hit.
OLED display technology at least probably isn't ready to be used for something like a laptop screen.
So, for the "love of reason and common sense", can we stop expecting Apple to create a product that isn't even technically feasible right now?
I think if you want 24 hours of battery life, you're probably better off carrying 6 or 7 spare batteries (and the $600-700 cost of doing so and added weight is still probably less than what it would take to get some laptop that actually had a reliable 24 hour battery life.)
-Zadillo
slothy420
Jun 15, 04:41 PM
Radio Shack is no longer doing Pre-orders...I was told there are no more iPhones available for them...
The Best Buy in my area is doing a $50 Pre-order but it's BS...The $50 doesn't go towards the iPhone...You're still going to have to pay full price (not guaranteed that you will get one on launch) and the $50 that was originally paid will be returned to you as a gift card. Are you serious????
I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, but it doesn't match my experience at BB this morning. I paid $50 for the deposit which was returned to me in the form of a $50 BB gift card, which the sales rep specifically told me to bring it back on the 24th and it would be applied towards my iPhone purchase. I have a 9am appt at the store (1st appt of the day) and will be the first one to walk out of there with my new iPhone 4.
The Best Buy in my area is doing a $50 Pre-order but it's BS...The $50 doesn't go towards the iPhone...You're still going to have to pay full price (not guaranteed that you will get one on launch) and the $50 that was originally paid will be returned to you as a gift card. Are you serious????
I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, but it doesn't match my experience at BB this morning. I paid $50 for the deposit which was returned to me in the form of a $50 BB gift card, which the sales rep specifically told me to bring it back on the 24th and it would be applied towards my iPhone purchase. I have a 9am appt at the store (1st appt of the day) and will be the first one to walk out of there with my new iPhone 4.
Blue Velvet
Mar 22, 10:21 AM
I was stewing about this
Honestly, don't bother. You think facts count for anything? One simple pointed observation about Ronald Reagan was enough to stop the flow of nonsense in its tracks. Congress hasn't declared war since the mid-1940s... funny how that's so important all of a sudden now.
As for the ill-advised juvenile rant about liberals and 'their' first black president, I think it's far better that sort of comment is left intact for others to read. The full workings of the conservative id are plain to see.
Honestly, don't bother. You think facts count for anything? One simple pointed observation about Ronald Reagan was enough to stop the flow of nonsense in its tracks. Congress hasn't declared war since the mid-1940s... funny how that's so important all of a sudden now.
As for the ill-advised juvenile rant about liberals and 'their' first black president, I think it's far better that sort of comment is left intact for others to read. The full workings of the conservative id are plain to see.
840quadra
Apr 27, 08:48 AM
Did you read ANY of the news articles.
With location services turned off, this data was still be collected. And Apple says this was a "bug"
So you're wrong.
Regardless,
Carrying any type of wireless phone (even so-called dumb phones), and expecting to have no chance of being tracked, or logged in some fassion is a bit closed minded.
Because, despite how Apple excel at so many things, when it comes to handling user (quality or privacy) concerns like this, they suck.
Look at their responses to the iPhone 4 antenna issue:
"You're holding it wrong" - Blame the customer.
'Every phone has the same issue' - Our phone is bad, but no worse than anyone else's
'Let's change how the signal bars are displayed' - Let's hide the problem.
'Let's give a bumper case with the iPhone' - Let's offer a solution to some users, to get them off our back for a problem we used to deny even existed.
I'm not even saying the antenna issue was a serious problem, but Apple's dismissive attitude is only throwing fuel on the fire. If they had tackled it quicker, it would be never have been newsworthy.
It's great that Apple are addressing this (location) issue much quicker, but still it only is happening after they initially denied there was any issue, and waiting for the furore to grow before acting.
Agreed, Apple is a bit too good at putting it's foot in it's own stem.. I mean mouth. :o
With location services turned off, this data was still be collected. And Apple says this was a "bug"
So you're wrong.
Regardless,
Carrying any type of wireless phone (even so-called dumb phones), and expecting to have no chance of being tracked, or logged in some fassion is a bit closed minded.
Because, despite how Apple excel at so many things, when it comes to handling user (quality or privacy) concerns like this, they suck.
Look at their responses to the iPhone 4 antenna issue:
"You're holding it wrong" - Blame the customer.
'Every phone has the same issue' - Our phone is bad, but no worse than anyone else's
'Let's change how the signal bars are displayed' - Let's hide the problem.
'Let's give a bumper case with the iPhone' - Let's offer a solution to some users, to get them off our back for a problem we used to deny even existed.
I'm not even saying the antenna issue was a serious problem, but Apple's dismissive attitude is only throwing fuel on the fire. If they had tackled it quicker, it would be never have been newsworthy.
It's great that Apple are addressing this (location) issue much quicker, but still it only is happening after they initially denied there was any issue, and waiting for the furore to grow before acting.
Agreed, Apple is a bit too good at putting it's foot in it's own stem.. I mean mouth. :o
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